2019. augusztus 14., szerda

Politics and wait for it... The Illuminati and a little sidenote on Jehovah's witnesses

Hi All,



I had an interesting discussion about the Illuminati and the Free Masons and Jehovah's Witnesses and politics the other day, so I decided to give you some straight history instead of Bible analysis today because it got my brain buzzing.Here are my findings after my searching.




Who are the Illuminati aka the Enlightened ones? 


Spanish historian Marcelino Menéndez y Pelayo first finds the name about 1492 (in the form aluminados, 1498) but traces them back to a gnostic origin and thinks their views were promoted in Spain through influences from Italy. (Information from https://www.britannica.com/topic/illuminati-group-designation)

"The order of the day," they wrote in their general statutes, "is to put an end to the machinations of the purveyors of injustice, to control them without dominating them."( Quote from Richard van Dülmen, The Society of Enlightenment (Polity Press 1992) p. 110)
The Illuminati—along with Freemasonry and other secret societies—were outlawed through edict by the Bavarian ruler Charles Theodore with the encouragement of the Catholic Church. In 1785, the order was infiltrated, broken up and suppressed by the government agents of Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria, in his preemptive campaign to neutralize the threat of secret societies ever becoming hotbeds of conspiracies to overthrow the Bavarian monarchy and its state religion, Roman Catholicism. (Taken from McKeown, Trevor W. (2004). "A Bavarian Illuminati primer")
 There is no evidence that the Bavarian Illuminati survived its suppression in 1785. (Information from René le Forestier, Les Illuminés de Bavière et la franc-maçonnerie allemande, Paris, 1914, pp. 453, 468–469, 507–508, 614–615) After these bans the church made extensive efforts to demonize them and their activities. Therefore they needed to go undercover with their discussions. Groups often related to the Illuminati are the Freemasons and the Skull and Bones. (Description a bit later on)




The New World Order aka why do people think that the Illuminati is secretly running the world:





In the late 18th century, reactionary conspiracy theorists, such as Scottish physicist John Robison and French Jesuit priest Augustin Barruel, began speculating that the Illuminati had survived their suppression and become the masterminds behind the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror. The Illuminati were accused of being subversives who were attempting to secretly orchestrate a revolutionary wave in Europe and the rest of the world in order to spread the most radical ideas and movements of the Enlightenment—anti-clericalism, anti-monarchism, and anti-patriarchalism—and to create a world noocracy and cult of reason. During the 19th century, fear of an Illuminati conspiracy was a real concern of the European ruling classes, and their oppressive reactions to this unfounded fear provoked in 1848 the very revolutions they sought to prevent. (Taken from McKeown, Trevor W. (2004). "A Bavarian Illuminati primer")
 
During the interwar period of the 20th century, fascist propagandists, such as British revisionist historian Nesta Helen Webster and American socialite Edith Starr Miller, not only popularized the myth of an Illuminati conspiracy but claimed that it was a subversive secret society which served the Jewish elites that supposedly propped up both finance capitalism and Soviet communism in order to divide and rule the world. American evangelist Gerald Burton Winrod and other conspiracy theorists within the fundamentalist Christian movement in the United States—which emerged in the 1910s as a backlash against the principles of Enlightenment secular humanism, modernism, and liberalism—became the main channel of dissemination of Illuminati conspiracy theories in the U.S.. Right-wing populists, such as members of the John Birch Society, subsequently began speculating that some collegiate fraternities (Skull and Bones), gentlemen's clubs (Bohemian Club), and think tanks (Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission) of the American upper class are front organizations of the Illuminati, which they accuse of plotting to create a New World Order through a one-world government. (Taken from Barkun, Michael (2003). A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America. University of California Press)
Other than these events and religious leaders infiltrating and demonizing their work, the Illuminati also have been depicted as the secret organization running the world and controlling all events by popular media such as Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code (which is a book I love and read multiple times, pick it up if you haven't) and facts such as the American Dollar having the all seeing eye, an Illuminati symbol on it as well as a pyramid another Illuminati symbol. Also the element of secrecy is not helping their case either to appear benevolent. People tend to feel helpless and given that the world has many horrible events happening that make this feeling of insecurity and at cases paranoia even more prevalent, as mentioned and analyzed in this Guardian article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/14/illuminati-running-world-not-mad-idea-questioning-hidden-power-elites-sane 




 The eye of the Illuminati on a bank note. ‘It’s good to know that we’re much more sensible and rational than these clearly deluded conspiracy theorists.’





Furthermore many artists such as Katy Perry, Beyoncé and many more used this kind of imagery and hand gestures associated with the organization making people think they are all controlled by these secret leaders who try to take control over people's minds through entertainment. This again stems from people's need to understand and connect everything and a common worry about our freedom and free will, especially mentally because we all value our thinking. 



Freemasons Freemasonry or Masonry consists of fraternal organisations that trace their origins to the local fraternities of stonemasons that from the end of the fourteenth century regulated the qualifications of stonemasons and their interaction with authorities and clients. Since the middle of the 19th century, Masonic historians have sought the origins of the movement in a series of similar documents known as the Old Charges, dating from the Regius Poem in about 1425 to the beginning of the 18th century. Alluding to the membership of a lodge of operative masons, they relate it to a mythologised history of the craft, the duties of its grades, and the manner in which oaths of fidelity are to be taken on joining.The 15th century also sees the first evidence of ceremonial regalia ( From John Yarker (1909). The Arcane Schools. Manchester. pp. 341–342.)

Freemasonry has attracted criticism from theocratic states and organised religions for supposed competition with religion, or supposed heterodoxy within the fraternity itself and has long been the target of conspiracy theories, which assert Freemasonry to be an occult and evil power.  (Taken from Morris, S. Brent; The Complete Idiot's Guide to Freemasonry, Alpha books, 2006, p,204.) 
As to why people believe that the Freemasons is the list of impressive and well-know members such as Benjamin Franklin or Mark Twain and Wintson Churchill. (See a nice list at https://www.businessinsider.com/powerful-masons-2011-9) It is easy to think they have control of nefarious things happening behind the scenes such as the oft quoted they must have sold their souls to the devil for their power and success. Not hard to be suspicious when a majority of their members are from such backgrounds such as Churchill leading the United Kingdom through World War II successfully and being admired throughout his career.





**Interesting fact: During the middle ages and enlightenment era all professions such as butchery, shoe making, sewing and weaponry and masonry had their production strictly regulated through guilds, and whoever did not follow the quality and quantity regulations and did not meet the demands to join a guild would be cast out as unreliable workers. **





Skull and Bones, The Order, Order 322 or The Brotherhood of Death is an undergraduate senior secret student society at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. The oldest senior class society at the university, Skull and Bones has become a cultural institution known for its powerful alumni and various conspiracy theories. (From Stevens, Albert C. (1907). Cyclopedia of Fraternities: A Compilation of Existing Authentic Information and the Results of Original Investigation as to the Origin, Derivation, Founders, Development, Aims, Emblems, Character, and Personnel of More Than Six Hundred Secret Societies in the United States. E. B. Treat and Company) 
The group Skull and Bones is featured in conspiracy theories, which claim that the society plays a role in a global conspiracy for world control. Theorists such as Alexandra Robbins suggest that Skull and Bones is a branch of the Illuminati, having been founded by German university alumni following the order's suppression in their native land by Karl Theodor, Elector of Bavaria with the support of Frederick the Great of Prussia, or that Skull and Bones itself controls the Central Intelligence Agency due to them having many powerful, and often politically influential members. (See https://www.britannica.com/topic/Skull-and-Bones-Yale)




So now that I gave a brief overlook on the Illuminati and other organizations connected to them, why would Jehovah's witnesses have anything to do at all with them? William Miller, with whom Russel studied with was a credited freemason. (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/miller_w/miller_w.html)
I found claims that Charles Taze Russel was a freemason and thought I would research it because he did study closely with Miller until 1872 and his father was a free mason as well (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Charles-Taze-Russell and http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/russell_c/russell_c.html)

Charles Taze Russel believed in Pyramidology and after studying the early Watchtower material and his speeches experts have claimed that various symbols Russell employed in his published literature are Masonic in nature, and that such associations implied he engaged in occult activity. In later editions of the Studies in the Scriptures series a winged solar disk was stamped on the front cover, a symbol that is also associated with Freemasonry. However, Russell's use of the winged solar-disk originated from his understanding of Malachi 4:2, which denotes a sun with wings, as a symbol that Christ's millennial Kingdom had begun to emerge. Some critics also claim that the pyramid near Russell's gravesite is Masonic,because of its shape and its use of the Cross and Crown symbol, although this remains disputed. The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon has said that Russell was not a Freemason, and notes that these symbols under discussion used are not exclusive to Masonry but pre-date the fraternity.

In June 1913, during a transcontinental speaking tour, Russell lectured in a Masonic hall in San Francisco, saying: 


"Although I have never been a Mason ... Something I do seems to be the same as Masons do, I don't know what it is; but they often give me all kinds of grips and I give them back, then I tell them I don't know anything about it except just a few grips that have come to me naturally."



Throughout his ministry he said that he believed Christian identity is incompatible with Freemasonry. He described Freemasonry, Knights of Pythias, Theosophy, and other such groups as "grievous evils" and "unclean".
Following views first taught by Christian writers such as John Taylor, Charles Piazzi Smyth and Joseph Seiss, Russell believed that the Great Pyramid of Giza was built by the Hebrews (associated to the Hyksos) under God's direction, but to be understood only in our day. He adopted and used Seiss's phrase, referring to it as "the Bible in stone". He believed that certain biblical texts, including Isaiah 19:19–20 and others, prophesied a future understanding of the Great Pyramid. He believed that the various ascending and descending passages represented the fall of man, the provision of the Mosaic Law, the death of Christ, the exultation of the saints in heaven, etc. Calculations were made using the pattern of an inch per year. Dates such as 1874, 1914, and 1918 were purported to have been found through the study of this monument. The Freemasons themselves say he was never a member but he seemed to have a sort of fascination with their history. (Information taken from and further images of early Watchtower material with masonic imagery https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/davinci-freemason.php and Occult Theocrasy, Volume 1, Lady Queenborough Edith Starr Miller (published posthumously for private circulation only, 1933) p.539)




Below we have the grave of Russel with a pyramid:






 







I found less connection between Jehovah's Witnesses and the Illuminati then I anticipated because of Russel's grave, and the early publishings. I am however interested in the history of this movement and their viewpoint on politics and human secular policy making and human rigths seme to be the closest to my own way of thinking.Needless to say with powerful people aligned with these organizations and with them seemingly being secretive and on the "winning side" of history, it is easy to get carried away, however I don't think they were more than politically inclined and artistically liberated people who came together at a time where religion did not leave them a chance to express their views. As well as the Second World War demonizing anything related to socialist theory that seems to be in line with these organizations (Other than the Skull and Bones which does not seem to have such ideas noted on any source I analyzed.) 
 

So to finish this off I will leave you with two quotes I liked.



He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever. - Mark Twain 

No one should be ashamed to admit they are wrong, which is but saying, in other words, that they are wiser today than they were yesterday. - Alexander Pope


I hope you found this bit about these interesting organizations interesting, I surely enjoyed writing it and had fun finding more out about history. I will be back with another one shortly, until then don't forget curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.




 

2019. augusztus 10., szombat

New World Translation, and Women! PART 2 - Leviticus and Numbers (Because there are just way too many examples)

Hi All,


I am back with another set of Bible quotes on women. This time from Leviticus and Numbers.



Leviticus 21:13 


This quote is about how men of God should only marry pure women who are not widowers, defiled women, or prostitutes and to make sure the woman is not outside of the community. (I have the Hungarian version, in which it says he shall not marry a violated woman)

I understand that in the days when there was tribes were not united it may be the best to keep marriages in the community. This quote is too easy to read as if a woman is assaulted she is unclean and unfit for marriage. Or like in the case of Dinah, a woman may be forced to marry her violator. As a Jehovah's Witness I used to think along the same lines and I feel obligated to make sure I challenge these ideas.




Numbers 5:11-23



In these verses we learn how husbands should handle jealousy. In case of jealousy a husband shall take his wife to the priest and the priest should give the woman holy water with the dust of the church floor and if it made her sick, she shall dies in her sin. Also these verses say if another man let his seed in you your womb shall swell and deteriorate you hips.
I need to point out that this view ignores rape and assault. Not only that but it is not explained what a wife should do in cases of infidelity on her husband's part.I believe infidelity is a terrible form of disrespect therefore either women or men should have an avenue to leave a relationship if they don't feel confident in their partner for any reason.




Numbers 31: 13-19



After a battle against Midian Moses and his army leaders when outside of the camp and Moses was angry at them because they left the women alive. At this point Jehovah inspires them to kill all men, boys and women/girls who had relations with men. After that they are prisoners and possibly married by their captors.
Now in those ages people definitely died early, so I take a big issue and have doubts about the morality of having children witnessing a battle and then being taken captive to be married off. I definitely think that in any manner it is not moral to demand such a thing of any person. And just to be fair it is extreme to kill little boys for the battle of their parents. And vice versa. Parents should not be punished for the faults of their children. I just thought this was important to highlight as people of faith like to refer to God as a God of Love. Or a Father. I would definitely say a Father should not require such a thing of children. 




This is a shorter one, but I thought these three verses were important to dig deeper into. I think we need to research history along with religion to understand how religion evolved and formed in it's early days. As with Christianity and with Islam it was a form of unifying the people. With Christianity it was the Roman Empire and the vast territory and many types of people on the land. Especially Jewish people had a very different culture and religion, a monotheistic one that prohibited them from animal sacrifice. They wanted independence and Romans were especially vigilant about the region and raided the people of Jerusalem. Unrest grew against tax collectors and Roman soldiers and a sect of Judaism evolved into what we now know as Christianity when a rabbi Jesus of Nazareth was killed at the stake. Islam has a similar history, but in Arabia, with quite similar roots and pillars. Both are monotheistic, believe Jesus is a prophet sent by God and originated from the Middle East.
So here's a little bit about that. I am just very interested in history. And it is important to place these ruling in context with history. See, today with science we have better healthcare, longer lifespans and therefore in the early 1900s en expansion of childhood, the teenage years were defined. It is an important addendum to this post as today a 16 year old would barely be allowed to get married, however in the Biblical days a 16 year old would be considered an adult. Marriage is also a very different institution today then back then. Today, with more social freedom for both women and men partners have means to end marriages if it turns abusive or if their partner does not match them. Also marriage is more based on emotion and not bettering political and feudal relationships.


With that I end my post, and don't forget curiosity may have killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back!



2019. augusztus 4., vasárnap

New World Translation, and Women! PART 1 - Genesis (Because there are just way too many examples)

I trust everyone has seen a Bible before so I might not spend any time introducing the book. 
It is an important piece of literature that has been a staple of European and later on American Culture, to this day. So I have taken a second to read the Bible for another time and mark all the discriminatory or degrading stuff that I have found about women (feel free to add your own findings if any) I also used dear old Google to help me find any I may have missed. As such here goes some things I did not notice were highly troubling while I was Jehovah's Witness but now rub me the worst possible way. (I am going in order in the Bible so you can easily follow, all will be indicated and refers to the Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation) This one is a bit rambly as well because I have many a thought about these verses, so please bear with me! 


GENESIS: 


The story of Adam and Eve and how they got banned from Eden:

Genesis 3:13-17

So we all know that Adam was first created and God saw that he was lonely, so God took out his ribs and created Eve. Then comes the Snake tempting her into eating from the Tree Of Knowledge and the Tree of Life. She then makes Adam eat too so they both end up being punished for disobeying God. (Now, the fallacy of a benevolent, all-powerful and all-knowing God making such a mistake as to make his creation prone to sin, or create sin in the first place is for a different time. For now, I want to focus on women) 
The punishment? God said he will create conflict and strife between man and woman and that they will eat the dust of the Earth until the die.
Eve has to sleep and crave for Adam then give birth to children in pain and fear.
Adam has to work the fields to provide for themselves. 
You see the issue with this, is this Bible verse has been twisted into making a blanket statement about women being seductresses who cannot control themselves and men as victims to the whims of women. Also, the term used, when Eve is created has been used to keep women from jobs, and public places and discussions for millennia: Help-Meet made form his ribs. Now, I think it is unfair expectation on either gender to be submissive and dainty. I think we as people should strive to find what makes us happy and satisfied. Other than that, keeping half of the population out of the public space because they are deemed innate sinners, who ruined mankind is a stretch by all means.





The Story of Lot: 


Genesis 19:4-9 


We all know the story of Lot too, but to recount the verses cited in a short manner: Angels visit Lot and his family in Sodom. After some discussion between them, they agree to stay the night in Lot's house instead of the city. Hearing this the men of Sodom surrounded the house, asking Lot to hand over the angels so that they might bed them. To which Lot offers them his two virgin daughters to rape, to not have sex with men as that is a vile/evil thing. After this, a fight ensued. 
So in this story, a father sees it more fit for adult men to rape his small daughters over having consensual homosexual sex. (Consensual is questionable at best, but even so... Why is it better to rape one gender over the other?) 
The moral of this story as for me is protecting men over young girls and women is a priority and women getting raped is better than men getting raped. Also while at it, angels are powerful, how is that they do not defend themselves and need innocent girls being raped to get out of a sticky situation? (Okay angels are genderless as per Jehovah's witnesses doctrine, so we are gonna roll with it on this one, because of the expressions Lot uses in the situation) 





Rachel, Leah and Jacob:



Genesis 30:1-10


Again recounting the story shortly before challenging it!
So Jacob and Rachel are married and Rachel cannot conceive a child for him. She sees her sister getting pregnant and giving birth to her child so she decides that another woman, her handmaid should be raped on her knees to fall pregnant and carry a child to term to be ripped away from it right after so that she can raise the baby after.


Now I say raped, because we never get a word from Bilha or Zilpa or Leah. So, to be safe let's assume these handmaids did not really have an option based on how servants/slaves were considered property back then. Other than that, exploiting women for child-rearing is not ethical, no matter which historical era we are talking about. This story to me, similarly to the amazing book by Margaret Atwood, tells that women have been always considered at stock value, and surely back in those days when lords were to raise their own army and mortality rates were high due to the lack of scientific development, I see why a big family to work the lands would be highly beneficial. But we are not in those days anymore, and infertile women exist. I am one and I have had relationships trying to force me into invasive surgery and involving other people to have kids. So to me it is personally very important to challenge the notion that women should be focused on their fertility and sexual availability over anything else. I love my career, my friends, my books, my Netflix and my sour Skittles and I am infertile and I don't ever want to change any of it. 





The Story of Dinah and Shechem:


Genesis 34: 1- 17


Again, recounting the story first, then arguing against whatever the hell is happening!
So Jacob had a daughter, Dinah. Dinah made some friends and acquaintances form a town nearby. Schechem, a son of the ruler of that town Hamor liked Dinah so he raped her to force her father to give her to him in marriage. Eventually, this did happen with some conditions on Jacob's part, but it happened. 

So, my take on this is that a woman's virginity is more important than her feelings, wants and needs. Because obviously Dinah's "purity" was taken by Schechem, she was forced to marry him to avoid further shame to the family. The only objection to marriage? Shechem was not circumcised. That was the men's only issue. Not that the rapist wanted to marry their daughter/sister, but that the rapist had foreskin. Again for millennia women have been expected to bleed on their wedding nights, and to consummate their marriage in front of the village because purity was valued over anything else. This is troubling because victims still get asked where they were, how much they drank or what they were wearing when they were assaulted/raped. Society needs to do better.



And with these random, and rambly angry thoughts I leave you for now until the next one!



Don't forget, curiosity may have killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back! 




2019. július 30., kedd

Religious Trauma Syndrome

Hi All,



This week I found out about Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) and figured I would do some research and share. Maybe it can help someone, I hope!


Why am I doing this?


I was a Jehovah's witness for 10,5 years. I joined when I was 5 and exited when I was 15 and a half.
During those years my family who didn't study constantly degraded and ignored me and basically shunned me. Once I woke up it was hard to cope and I want to help others so that they might have an easier time handling the process. I am also one for research and bettering myself so I thought doing some of that and sharing the results would be nice.




What is Religious Trauma Syndrome?



Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) is a function of both the chronic abuses of harmful religion and the impact of severing one’s connection with one’s faith and faith community. It can be compared to a combination of PTSD and Complex PTSD (C-PTSD). In the last article of this series, I explained some of the toxic aspects of authoritarian religions that cause long-term psychological damage (Bible-based ones in particular). With PTSD, a traumatic event is one in which a person experiences or witnesses actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others. Losing one’s faith, or leaving one’s religion, is an analogous event because it essentially means the death of one’s previous life – the end of reality as it was understood. It is a huge shock to the system and one that needs to be recognized as trauma.


RTS as a complex PTSD: 

The definition of Complex PTSD is interesting in light of religious indoctrination: ‘a psychological injury that results from protracted exposure to prolonged social and/or interpersonal trauma with lack or loss of control, disempowerment, and in the context of either captivity or entrapment, i.e. the lack of a viable escape route for the victim’ (Wikipedia). Small children who are subjected to toxic religious teachings and practices are trapped and dependent on their dysfunctional families. Pete Walker (2009) has developed an approach in psychotherapy that considers emotional flashbacks to be the key symptom of Complex PTSD. Because of the prolonged nature of the trauma, he says Complex PTSD can be even more virulent and pervasively damaging in its effects. (Complex PTSD has not yet been included in the DSM; nor has RTS.) This seems to be true for many who have left religion.


What are the symptoms of RTS? 

Depression, fatigue, anxiety, and exhilarating sense or remnant religious guilt. As well as overthinking, but that is a side effect of religion in general when in too. Also the biggest issue with high control groups and leaving is that environment damages one's confidence, and trust in their own intellect, their own decision-making skills. Also, high control groups tend to discourage people from therapy because if you speak to an outsider they may notice signs of behavior and thought control and advise the person seeking help to remove themselves from the group. 

As for me, I was always an anxious person and when I became a witness the glazy-eyed smile made me sweep it under the rug and not mention it. When I woke up it all got worse, and I spent two years in a quasi catatonic state before secretly going to therapy and getting help. 


What causes RTS?


What causes RTS is the dissonance after losing one's faith. It is especially prominent in high control groups such as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Hutterites. 
Since high control groups control Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotion (As noted in Steven Hassan's BITE Model) the sense of betrayal and loss of identity can cause a major break in a person. They also isolate people and make their social network dependent on their faith or attendance to meetings.  
After leaving, many end up being angry and jaded, while some find other religions such as Catholicism or Baptist branches. Depending on how much time they spent in the high control group the feeling of betrayal, and feeling of wasted youth. When I left I became jaded and dived nose first into researching the history of Jehovah's Witnesses and deprogramming myself. I also sought help in therapy and made new friends independently from religion.



Why is RTS so hard to diagnose, and get help for?


RTS is a relatively invisible issue. For example, my family never offered any help, even though they did know Jehovah's Witnesses is a cult. This is an all too common issue, as families inside high control groups tend to practice shunning. Families, like mine, outside of the religion did not grasp the severity of thought-stopping I employed to keep up my faith. I was always a person with a passionate curiosity and I always ask many questions and wanted the picture to have logic, and sadly it didn't which caused me so much dissonance and deflection when asked questions. I was always interested in biology, psychology, and sciences and they always reprimanded me for it. I also had an interest in languages and writing which I was made guilty about because they are worldly talents and interests that don't benefit Jehovah and the organization (which is one and the same, make no mistake) 
You see the issue with RTS is that it is not a specific set of triggers that make the person feel better. It is also an underdocumented and researched affliction. Recently there has been a call for more attention to be paid to religions and their impact on mental health. My experience with Christianity is that they place focus on guilt, confessing to "impure or worldly" thoughts and eternal punishment if a follower doesn't comply. 


How to cope with RTS?

Doing research on what is causing you the dissonance and getting professional psychiatric counseling is the best way to go around relieving the dissonance. Talking to friends and family about one's feelings and findings can also help to make them feel better, as with any mental health issue. Finding people with a similar experience who understand you and with whom you can have an honest conversation.


I hope you found this little snippet useful and don't forget, curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back!